Wyoming Schuetzen Union

[DaveN]

I am planning on putting together a CPA 44 1/2 in .22lr and .225 Win as a fun and varmint rifle. I want to use the older style external adjustment scopes such as the Feckers, Lymans and Unertls.

I realize that most of you are BP true believers, and I may have just farted in church. But you are probably one of the few groups that deals regularly with the older optics. That said, I do have a BP only Sharps that I will never run smokeless in.

How rugged and weather resistant are the target scopes compared to the varmint scopes?

Where can I find some good reading material on these scopes?

Where is a good source for them? (I already found unertlscopes.com)

What would be a good power setting. In this world of variable power scopes, a fixed power is a compromise. I'm thinking 8x for the .22 and 10 or 12x for the .225

[PETE]

Dave,

This is one of those, whatever suits your fancy sort of questions. In Schuetzen the traditionalists will use the externally adjusted scopes like the Unertl's. But many shooters put on a modern scope, and for what you want to use your rifle for they are probably the best choice.

But, if you really want a rifle that "looks" good the Unertl's, Lyman, Feckers, etc. are the right choice.

Of course they won't take the punishment that a modern scope will just due to their construction and mounting. They will however stand up to the recoil of any gun you want to mount them on, if that was what you were thinking of.

Forget waterproof. They aren't. In fact scopes made around the 1900's even came with instructions on how to disassemble and clean them. They apparently thought their customers were smart enuf to handle that chore by themselves.

There are a few books out for the older scopes, which I can't name for you offhand. A Google for the various brands might come up with something.

Other than the Unertl none of the other externally adjusted scopes are being made unless you really want to go whole hog and get one of those barrel length scopes legal for Shilouette. Your best bet is to pick one up at a gun show. It's where I've gotten all mine. But be warned that prices are going up every year and you can buy a pretty good modern scope for what some of the Unertl's go for. Others like the Winchesters, Lymans, Feckers, Litscherts, etc. can be gotten for under $500 in most cases.

Scope power for the .22 is really going to depend on what you want to do with it. You can go with everything from 4x for Squirrel to 30x for target bench shooting. Your 8x idea is a decent middle of the road, with that and 10x (my choice) being used by a lot of offhand shooters. I've used both the 4x, & 6x for Squirrel hunting and didn't feel handicapped. The same power rating would go for what you intend to use your .225 for. Long range Prairie Dog hunting would require more power than Wood Chuck, Coyote, or Crow hunting. A good compromise would be a 15x or 20x.

As you seem to be aware of, you can really have half a dozen externally adjusted scopes just to cover all the bases you want to use your gun for that one variable will cover nicely!
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PETE

Theory is very good...... in the absence of facts. - Horace Warner

[Boats]

Pete gave you very good advice. I would add though Gill Parsons at Parsons scope service does make a few reproduction Lyman Super Target Spots. I bought one from him when the used Unertils got so expensive.

I had and still have a Unertil 12 x target but wanted 20 power for a rimfire barrel on my CPA. It made more sense to get a new repoduction than to take a chance on an old scope that could have needed expensive repairs. This positon was after getting "stuck" on another Unertl.

He does not turn out many and you do have to wait but it's a real nice scope. For my shooting the 12x Unertil and 20 X Parsons STS covers all my single shot needs. The 12 x offhand with 32/40 and 38/55 barrels and the 20 x rimfire offhand and benchrest on a 32/40 barrel

If I was going to pay big bucks for a used Unertil I would buy it from someone like Gill who knows good from bad and can check it out first. Or make his inspection a condition of sale.

Boats

[PETE]

Boats,

Speak to me a little more about these Parsons STS's.

What is he asking for these?

What are we looking at for lead time?

The one thing I don't like about my 30x STS is the short eye relief. Even shooting the small charge loads in my .32/40 I don't dare get my eye close enuf to be able to see the whole picture...... so to speak. Does this change with the lower powers?
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PETE

Theory is very good...... in the absence of facts. - Horace Warner

[Boats]

Pete.

As far as fit and finish they are just as good as the Lymans but new. I think Gil bought some new old stock Lyman parts when he got started. I am not so sure about the engraving on the graduations. Unertls are very good in that department and these are not quite as crisp. But still perfectly readable and as good as any modern scope. I ought to look carefully at an orignal Lyman one time.

Lead time for me was pretty long. He moved his shop and when I placed the order was told the scope would not be produced until set up in the new location. I think I waited about a year but if he is up and running now should be a lot less. He will build the scope any power that you want, my primary focus was Rimfire offhand and always use 20x on my modern Silouette rifles so ordered the same with this one.

Eye relief is an issue. Rimfire it's no problem and I will use it with the 32/40 barrel too. No way with 38/55 it will hit my shooting glasses. I am just getting started with SS benchrest and it works fine on a # 5 32/40 barrel but I shoot it free recoil and don't have a full round sight picture when touching the rifle off. I think but don't know that eye relief is a function of power in the old long scopes. If so 16x would be about perfect for a offhand rifle.

I think I paid 675 plus another 100 for the fitted box. If you look on Ebay at the prices for used Unertils thats a good deal and also about what a new Leupold target cost. If I could find a perfect Unertl BV I would buy one though at about any price.

Rambling on other externals

Have you ever looked at the Mitchels ? I have seen a few on ranges and thought they would be perfect for a bench gun but too bulky and heavy for a offhand rifle. But I was told they produce or produced a smallbore prone model that was lighter. The MVA's are very nice but awfuly long for a Schuetzen. If they cut a foot or so off in 6 power would make a pretty nice small game scope. Couple of years ago through a trade I had a B & L Balvar varable. Very good optics and adjustments but again bulky and heavy. Traded it off to a friend and he loves the scope for rimfire benchrest.

Boats

[PETE]

Boats,

Thanks for the info. I was afraid of the short eye relief situation. Even with the short recoil of a Schuetzen .32/40, I have to keep my eye back away from the glass until there's about half the field showing. This is no problem for bench shooting but might be for offhand or small game/varmint hunting.

For hunting, even offhand shooting, I like the Unertl small game or 1 1/4" scopes. Same size for the Fecker's, Lichert's, and Lyman/Winchester scopes. Other than the 30x STS all my external scopes are in the 4x to 10x range.

Actually I can't afford the big target scopes!

I haven't bought a Unertl.... preferred around here..... for a few years, but your $675 for a Parsons is top dollar for a Unertl here. Other than Unertl's, the others mentioned above go for as low as $150 up to $400. I'm sure that will change over time as it's becoming harder to find any external scope in decent shape anymore.
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PETE

Theory is very good...... in the absence of facts. - Horace Warner

[Boats]

Pete

Would like to have a Unertil Small game. Would be just the ticket for Squrrel hunting. Or one of the other short about 4x scopes. The good Unertil 12 x I have cost 275 but it was a long time ago and did not need any repairs. I had a nice 12 x Varmit too that was ok but got stuck on a target that needed extensive and expensive repairs.

As far as current Unertil prices gun shows are the best but since the sniper books came out and they specificly mention Unertil the scopes cost double what they used to sell for. While I see them for well over 500 bucks I would not pay that. Again anyway.

I have never quite understood why the Unertil optics are so good. I was at a big smallbore match some years ago and Leopould had a factory rep showing there new Variable spotting scope. It was focused on a well dimpled Ram swinger at 100 meters. Old guy came up and said if the resoulution was better than his Unertil 20x spotter he would buy the Leopould. Set up his beat up scope and let anyone who wanted look at the same ram swinger.

The factory rep did not like it one bit. The old Unertil spotter was much better in resolving than the modern scope. It was not a big team scope either just a straight tube 20x by 56 mm

I often think about what a real good scope would be.

The modern Glass and Waterproof construction of a Leupold
Steel tube so the paralax will not change so much with temp.
Windage and elevation adjustments of the El Passo Tx Weaver T scope
Paralax adjustment of a Weaver T or Unertl or STS
Sight picture of a Unertil
Any reticule you want. Dot for me.
Price of a Jap import.

I guess it's impossable.

Boats

[PETE]

Boats,

Yep! I'd say your wish list is about impossible to come up with. Especially with the waterproof feature. Ain't gonna happen with an external scope that I'm aware of.

Of course we all want a Unertl for our SS's, but it's not really necessary for indoor, or 100 & 200 yd. offhand. Most of the old timers preferred under 10x scopes for offhand, and you sure don't need anymore for Squirrels at 50 yds., or other varmints under 200 yds.

So why not buy one of the cheaper externals? They are just as authentic and some like the Feckers, Malcolms, Lymans, Litcherts & Winchesters, have been around longer than the Unertl's and would actually be more authentic on a SS Schuetzen rifle. They all can be bought for less than a Unertl. Most won't look like NIB but I've seen some that have gone thru Parsons cleaning service and it's surprising the clarity of the optics when he gets done with them.

But, I do like your wish list. I've got Leupolds, Weaver T's, and Unertl's. But, if I could only have one for offhand and one for bench I think I'd take my 36x Leupold for bench. When I first put that on a rifle I learned more about shooting with a scope in one hour than I had in all the years previously. My 10x Unertl 1 1/4" with fine crosswires for offhand.
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PETE

Theory is very good...... in the absence of facts. - Horace Warner

[Brent]

FWIW, I recently saw a "new" Winchester A5 made by Parsons on a Hughes lowwall, so apparently making new/old scopes is something Parsons does in a number of lines.

I'd also say that as an ardent watcher of scope prices, most of thosenumbers you guys are quoting are pretty low - even by half, of what I've been seeing in a number of places. High power Unertls have been puching the 4 figure numbers recently. Even as much as $1200-1300. High power Lymans STSs are closing on the Kilobuck figure fast and may have even reached it in a few instances.

That's not to say that they all go for such prices, but figure that, like the price of gas, they seem to have no upper limit to what some folks are willing to pay for them.

Brent
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When underhammers are outlawed, only outlaws will have underhammers

[Boats]

Brent

Agree they are through the roof and not worth the money if you are a shooter not a collector.

Collectors are a funny bunch name is more important than true value. I had some old knives around the house. Two I won at Hunt Club raffles one a Gerber and one a Browning. Put them on Ebay "new in the box" and sold for over a hundred dollars each. I never thought enough of them to even use the knives but since they had the box and papers there was an active bid going on. They were so "Dude" looking I would have never put them on my belt.

Will Give Gil a call about the A5's I suspect you build external adjustment scopes by the yard and can cut the tubes any way you want. if he uses his standard Lyman micrometer mounts they are very good

Boats

[Boats]

Brent

On the scope prices. I am fairly long on Weaver T's so have been watching Ebay. A T-10 sold for 250 and a T16 for over 300. While I like the scopes anyone of mine someone would buy would have to go down to Bill Ackerman for some work and add at least a hundred bucks to the price.

A T 16 with 400 bucks in it ? It seems high to me.

Boats

[Brent]

Boats, I know nothing about Weavers so I can't comment on the prices. I will say that the prices in Strobel's very nice book on old scopes, with regards to Unertls, Lymans, Winchesters, Feckers are nostalgic at best.

I don't think ANY Unertl is worth $1000+ to me, but they clearly are to others. My one Unertl is a 4x small game scope that I love. I got it for about $400 if I recall correctly. It is worth more than that now, even to me.

I also think that some of the others are worth quite a bit to me. I have a Lyman STS that folks frequently want to buy off of me, but I like the scope so it's staying right here for a while yet. I'm also casually looking for a high power Fecker (25-30x if possible), and while I have yet to even find one for sale, I'm also still wrestling with what it is worth to me, should I stumble across won eventually. Can't quite make up my mind.

As for buying scopes on the net, I think the only "good" deals are those on damaged scopes that can be fixed up for a reasonable price. Several of my former and current scopes were bought for very reasonable prices and then repaired (generally just crosswires and cleaning).

Brent
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When underhammers are outlawed, only outlaws will have underhammers

[Boats]

To wrap all this up I phoned Gil Parsons. He is not building any STS scopes now although he does have the parts and set-ups to produce some more. Said he has been so busy with repairs he can't get the time to do it. Same for A5's but did put me on to a possable good used one.

Thanks

Boats

[SchwartzStock]

Dave,

Have you considered the MVA? I have a longer version and am quite satisfied although making adjustments is not as easy as one might suppose and the reference marks can be hard to read in certain light.

SS
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SchwartzStock